attendance, in general

[xnskzzxnvs]

if you have to be ready at a moments notice you deserve the same dkp.

There has to be more reward for actually putting in the time and going through the wipes. Some guy who sat on the bench for two months while we learned HM ICC does not deserve to come in and get the same loot prio as the guy who put in the time when it was hard.

if they are ready to step in at any moment, they are putting in the time (admittedly not putting in the wipes). if you don't think they deserve the loot, they probably shouldn't be in the wait list/raiding in the first place, and we have friend ranks for that. (inb4 ranks don't matter)

Especially given that we’ve had pretty much zero progression that wasn’t washed away the next week.

because of attendance. see us not getting into p3 yesterday after not pulling at all last week, even though we were wiping to frostmourne before that.

Like I said before. The "why" is no longer relevant. Whatever the cause, the chances of us fixing it in the next 4-8 weeks are minimal. We really need to be focusing on what we plan to do about it. Honestly I think doing nothing and forging ahead like nothing's wrong and there's actually a good chance of success is just a waste of everyone's time.

that's why i'm bitching and moaning about having a more efficient raid. it's (hopefully) not a waste of time. if you look at a wowprogress http://www.wowprogress.com/i/graph/ach_4584.png, it's basically a linear increase in the amount of guilds getting light of dawn since the first few. ie, you don't see huge jumps during buff% changes, and 30% 2 months ago or whatever didn't make the fight magically trivial. it still takes time and effort, and the amount needed differs per guild. i'm hoping we can be one dot on that line before 4.0.

it shouldn't. if the people you usually take to the fight are late/afk/busy/phone/power/wife/cinnamon-bun/goat-on-my-porch/or-otherwise-unavailable we should be getting other players in and doing another attempt instead of waiting 5-10 minutes for them to be back. we should want to have minimal down time, to get players who haven't done the fight much more experience in the fight, and to get progress (not necessarily in that order).

(and i'm not trying to point any fingers here, i just want to stress that we should make the best use that we can of our limited raid time, and people will be unavailable for any and all reasons.)

The problem runs deeper than attendance anyhow. Even with shoddy attendance you're not pulling in 5 new people a night. At this point everyone that comes to the attempts should have experience and blaming attendance for lack of progress (again, at this point) is borderline idiotic. I mean if you NEVER get attempts in thats one thing, but after so many months you cant say that missing a week is making raiders bad.

No half-way competent player is going to completely forget the mechanics of the fight if they don't put in attempts for one week. Even if they needed a warm-up that would be accomplished within a couple wipes, not an entire night of them. For fuck sake I have gone weeks in between attempts and still managed to put some of the raiders to shame when Im pulled in to cover for someone. Attendance is not the real problem. Period.

but we are taking new people to the fight. we have to because we lose old ones due to attrition. people don't completely forget the general mechanics, but they need to be reminded of specifics like stuns/cd/assignment/rotation/stay on the fucking valks/don't pull aggro we only have 1 rogue/blah blah and we lose more than a couple wipes getting it worked out. and that's time wasted not progressing. so maybe attendance is not the real true most severe problem, but it is something we can fix/bandaid, and anything that helps even a little helps. (john fucking madden here)

As far as DKP is concerned... Every guild that has killed HM LK so far has done it with equal or lesser gear than what the raid, as a whole, has now. Get rid of it. Open rolls for the remaining few weeks in the expansion.

Its perfectly obvious that these purples that your dkp is currently being spent on are going to be replaced with QUEST AND NON-HEROIC DUNGEON GEAR in Cataclysm. Who fucking cares about something that is going to be completely irrelevant in a couple months time?

honestly i should not have said anything about dkp, and it's not anything that applies to me anyway. my real selfish ulterior motive is that i just want there to be enough people on so that we can actually raid regularly on schedule (something that has happened rather rarely since i joined 2 months ago, and probably happened rarely before that), down the boss, and get nerdy achievement. i don't care about the loot as long as we have what we need to down the boss (note, we may need more loot than what guilds better than us need to down the boss), and talking about mount before we even get close to downing the boss is retarded.

[Sanderz]

Jack is so depressed hes joining the Tea Party.

[Hitshade]

(something that has happened rather rarely since i joined 2 months ago, and probably happened rarely before that)

Negative.
It started to be a severe issue in ICC when wlph had to constantly recruit the remnants of broken guilds in order to replace the core raiders that began leaving. That is the nature of guilds, usually, so its not as if WLPH suffered something completely out of the ordinary. The rate at which high quality players began leaving was somewhat staggering... But no, the outrageous problems with attendance being seen now were never this great in the 2+ years Ive been here.

but we are taking new people to the fight. we have to because we lose old ones due to attrition. people don't completely forget the general mechanics, but they need to be reminded of specifics like stuns/cd/assignment/rotation/stay on the fucking valks/don't pull aggro we only have 1 rogue/blah blah and we lose more than a couple wipes getting it worked out. and that's time wasted not progressing. so maybe attendance is not the real true most severe problem, but it is something we can fix/bandaid, and anything that helps even a little helps. (john fucking madden here)

Are you really bringing in a new person every night? Beyond that, as you stated yourself these are issues that can (or should) be resolved within a couple of pulls. If you can go an entire night (or in this case weeks and months) having the same stupid little problems then its a skill issue or a potential leadership issue. Either people simply have no fucking clue what they are doing and are too terrible to figure it out and improve or the people that should be making assignments and solving these problems before they arise, aren't doing so.

Either that or there are a lot of people who simply dont want to give it 100% because they no longer care about the content. Im actually willing to bet its a combination of all three and I agree with Alyse that its not something that's going to resolve itself over night. I also agree its unlikely the issue will disappear any time prior to the release of Cataclysm.

[xnskzzxnvs]

after the point where it doesn't matter (protip: you passed that point already).

how does it not matter any less than the rest of the game? it's still a hard boss that few have killed. the mechanics and dps/hps/hp limits are easier now at 30%, but they haven't fundamentally changed from when the boss was first out, and they aren't changing until 4.0 hits.

to put it into perspective, if you look at the list of idiots that raid in this game:
Lord Marrowgar (25): 52014 (68.93%) -- if you've stepped inside a 25 instance at all you've killed marrowgar
The Lich King (25): 9800 (12.99%) -- if your guild isn't composed entirely of idiots you've killed lk25n
H: Sindragosa (25): 4220 (5.59%) -- if your guild is decent you've killed putri/sindra25h
H: The Lich King (25): 503 (0.67%) -- if your guild is good you've killed lk25h

it's still hard and matters as much as the rest of the game (both, of course, don't matter at all).


if you look at the picture starting from may (which was when 15% hit and made the fight possible for good guilds as opposed to the best of the best guilds), it's basically a straight line from then to now. there's no magic, just guilds putting in the time and grind and gear. some guilds get it faster and some slower, but we can be there too if we put in the grind.

(something that has happened rather rarely since i joined 2 months ago, and probably happened rarely before that)

Negative.
It started to be a severe issue in ICC when wlph had to constantly recruit the remnants of broken guilds in order to replace the core raiders that began leaving.

so it's an issue that can be fixed.

but we are taking new people to the fight. we have to because we lose old ones due to attrition. people don't completely forget the general mechanics, but they need to be reminded of specifics like stuns/cd/assignment/rotation/stay on the fucking valks/don't pull aggro we only have 1 rogue/blah blah and we lose more than a couple wipes getting it worked out. and that's time wasted not progressing. so maybe attendance is not the real true most severe problem, but it is something we can fix/bandaid, and anything that helps even a little helps. (john fucking madden here)

Are you really bringing in a new person every night? Beyond that, as you stated yourself these are issues that can (or should) be resolved within a couple of pulls. If you can go an entire night (or in this case weeks and months) having the same stupid little problems then its a skill issue or a potential leadership issue. Either people simply have no fucking clue what they are doing and are too terrible to figure it out, or the people that should be assigning and solving these problems before they arise aren't doing so.

we aren't bringing in a new person every night, but we do bring in a new person every now and then (or in yesterday's case, a few people that haven't done the fight at all or in months). we are going an entire night, but not weeks and months, having the same stupid little problems. it's that we make some progress, then get cockblocked for whatever reason, then come back the next week to find out we've taken 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. it's dumb and slows what little progress we make.

and i want to stress that we are making progress. it's not a steady line, and occasionally you have days when you have clearly regressed. but i look from now to 2 months ago (sorry i can't look further i wasn't in guild then), and it's a line sloping upwards. before i joined, as far as i know, the best attempts had got lk to ~50%, and all the wipes were dumb defile/valk wipes early in p2. after i had joined, occasionally we had days when we just had bad raids and wiped a bunch of times in p1 instead (which, to my understanding, would be a regression), but we had more and more attempts where we were getting deeper and deeper into p2, and eventually we managed to get a fair amount of wipes in frostmourne instead. now i'm not abe and i'm not going to say that the fight is easy and basically done once you get to p3. but i call progress when i see progress, and this is progress.

so sometimes we have bad attendance and don't raid, or show enough to raid but have a bad raid where we don't even get to p3, but we just need to bash our heads into our keyboards and get back on track so that we wipe after 2 frostmornes instead of 1, 3 instead of 2, enrage instead of frostmourne, etc.

so maybe it's idiotic to blame 3-steps-forward-2-steps-back-ness on attendance when good players shouldn't be taking 2 steps back, but you have 2 not mutually exclusive ways to fix it -- be good or show up -- and there's no reason why you can't try to do both.

[Firecrest]

if they are ready to step in at any moment, they are putting in the time (admittedly not putting in the wipes). if you don't think they deserve the loot, they probably shouldn't be in the wait list/raiding in the first place, and we have friend ranks for that. (inb4 ranks don't matter)

Sorry, but this is just the way it's going to be. I'm willing to discuss alternate WL DKP handling as specified earlier, but I will not entertain equal DKP ideas. If you look at other guilds, I doubt you'd find a single one that does it that way.

[lawlerbation the hardcore squatter]

just because every one else does something doesnt make it the Best way

honestly dkp isnt for pressing buttons its for time invested

which is why you reward it for mats back in bc why you rewarded it for 10mans, why you reward it for doing stupid screen shot competitions

[Sanderz]

if you look at the picture starting from may (which was when 15% hit and made the fight possible for good guilds as opposed to the best of the best guilds), it's basically a straight line from then to now. there's no magic, just guilds putting in the time and grind and gear. some guilds get it faster and some slower, but we can be there too if we put in the grind.

Since grinding worked so well for Crannad, it'll work for WLPH too!

[Kaistine]

When did this guild turn into a bunch of bitches bitching about everything?

[Sanderz]

it happens when you're stuck on a boss for 6 months

[Gregorylolzz]

I hear Lich King heroic is hard.

<3 you myndore

Ps. You're a huge faggot xnskzzxnvs.