10 vs 25

[Kaistine]

I want to start raiding but have finals this week, so I might not be able to til next week.

[Firecrest]

I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it. My preference is to do 10 mans. Mainly because I feel that they will most closely represent the true reasons why the game is challenging. And if they're harder, then that's great. Hell, that's the point. I prefer that type of challenge over the frustration of a 25 man raid where 1/5 of the raid is actually hindering progression as opposed to helping it forward.

Blizzard themselves have said that their intent is to make the two formats roughly equal in difficulty. And they've said that they've taken into account the "varied skill levels" (see: bads) that compromise a part of every 25 man raid. So it's not just me pointing out the differences behind the difficulty in 10 and 25.

Unless 5 pieces of loot drop off each boss (idk how many pieces drop but it was 3 throughout the entirety of WotLK), you're actually getting less loot off 25 man as opposed to two 10 mans. And that's completely discounting the legendaries. Two ten mans will get twice the legendaries.

None of the ranking sites I visit, including wowprogress, are differentiating between 25 and 10. So there's no prestige lost. In fact, given this, I'm very much concerned that a tight 10 man guild like Silhouette will have an easy time capturing the realm rank 2 spot.

The only reason I've seen for doing 25 mans that isn't flat out wrong is that 25 mans are more "epic". I don't agree, but how someone feels is not something you can argue against. You just have to ask yourself how important this epic feeling is when compared to all the opposing reasons against 25.

I suppose there are some clique issues that could develop. I'm not sure how that would play out. Though I've said it before... Half the people in any given 25 man are people I don’t know that well and wouldn't miss if they were gone.

If anyone has some other good reason for doing 25 man, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise the above are my reasons and I don't think I'll be stating them again. It seems like the majority of people want to do 25s - most of them "because it will be easier". I think that's pretty sad actually, but I'm sure 25s are what we're going to end up doing at first. We'll just have to see how it goes.

[Talith]

The only reason I've seen for doing 25 mans that isn't flat out wrong is that 25 mans are more "epic". I don't agree, but how someone feels is not something you can argue against. You just have to ask yourself how important this epic feeling is when compared to all the opposing reasons against 25.

I definitely like the feeling of the 25 man raid, 10 man is just like a glorified heroic run... However Alyse states facts that sooner of later will affect everyone (I mean every one of us, and every single 25 man guild).

We have seen how encounters can be balanced either way in terms of difficulty. Just as you sometimes carry 5 bads, 25 man raids can have more room for error, 1 healer down is only 1/5 healing loss, where in a 10 man 1 healer down could be up to 50% healing lost. If you guys remember before 3.1 the hardest encounter in WotLK pre zerg strat was Sarth 3D 10 man.

Loot drops is something that can be balanced quickly and I don't think its an area blizzard would leave untouched for long if one format proves to be significantly superior to the other.

The real concern is that it is a FACT that if we come across something hard in 25 man we WILL be able to grab the 10 strongest players and kill that boss in 10m. We should just develop a way to deal with this.

I want to continue raiding as 25 man, I dislike having 10man A team and B teams, I will adapt to whatever format we end up doing.

[ArchmageFurly in three days]

I got a little heated yesterday and I apologize for that. Non-Wow related stuff put me in a real shitty mood and I basically flipped out on Alyse. We talked it over and it's all good.

Now I understand the reasons people think that 10 mans are a better idea. However, as I said a 25 man simple feels like more of a raid. Who remembers how great it was in 40 mans when people in the same raid were doing a compeltely different job on the same boss fight. I feel it's much more satisfying when 25 people can work as a cohesive unit to bring a boss down. 10 mans are fun yes, and will probably progress better for the majority of players because its easier to coordinate. But the top guilds in the world are still 25 man. Do you know why that is? It's because as a guild, they work to ensure that all 25 of their raiders are strong players and work together. It's more difficult to achieve than it is in 10 man, but that's what makes the best guild in the worlds the best, and what makes their achievements more memorable and I want that to be what we aspire to. It's the responsibility of the officers and in fact everyone else to bring us to this point.


We could very easily grab our 10 strongest players and tear through 10 man content but I would not be satisfied with that as a guild. All respect to 10 man guilds, but I do not believe that clearing content as a 10 man says as much about a guild as it does in 25 man. They're talented players for sure, bu they don;t ahve to work to overcome the problems that 25 man guilds have. I want every raider to work together in a 25 man and clear content that way. I want people to look at WLPH and say that we're a great guild not just for clearing content, but also by the manner in which the guild conducts and manages itself. I definitly think we have that potential. We have strong players, and we've survived a shit ton more internal conflict than any other guilds on this server without question over the past years.

I'm not going to be so arrogant as to assume everyone wants the same thing as me, but if you do, please work to make this guild as great as it can be.

[Kaistine]

For these theoretical 10 mans, does grabbing the 10 strongest players ACTUALLY mean grabbing the 10 strongest, or grabbing some of the roflcers + whoever they are best friends with?

[ArchmageFurly in three days]

For these theoretical 10 mans, does grabbing the 10 strongest players ACTUALLY mean grabbing the 10 strongest, or grabbing some of the roflcers + whoever they are best friends with?

When we assign the 10 mans for this week tommorow night they will be made evenly. The bosshole 10 man is not counted in this, and all of their players are discounted from our raid roster.

[Firecrest]

I would actually suggest against forming the strongest possible 10 man that we could. So no A Team and B Team. If we can form one 25 man raid, I don't see why we couldn't form two reasonably equal 10 man groups and at the same time cull the portion of the raid that is underperforming. Or, if we have so many good players that no one in a 25 man raid is underperforming, make three 10 mans. Or five. Or fifty.

I don't really think we're in that position though. And if we are, I don't expect it to last long. If we manage to come up with a very strong 25 man raiding roster right now, how long will it be before people start Bosshole-ing out? "Content too hard" and "Content too boring" will happen. And what then?

I can definitely see an argument for "worry about that when we get there", but the inevitability of it seems pretty plain to me. As does the pain in the ass it will be to make that switch later instead of now.

Personally, I would make two equally skilled ten mans and then go down from there. Make a third that would be that "B Team" and then organize others for alts and trials and the like.

[lawlerbation the hardcore squatter]

its bullshit

this is like in gym class when the teacher would pick the 2 black kids to be captains for a basketball game

GOOD PLAYERS DONT LIKE STRUGGLING BECAUSE OF MISTAKES

at least i dont, nothing like playing perfectly and having maymays chain fel flames to 4 people because she is retarded.

[Berniemacs]

i love it how the term "bosshole" just became a way to describe QUITTERS

LIKE ME CAHN KIPP MINI TAY AND GHOST CRAZYD THORRAN

[Thorran]

i love it how the term "bosshole" just became a way to describe QUITTERS

LIKE ME CAHN KIPP MINI TAY AND GHOST CRAZYD

I'm not sure how I feel about being left off this list.