DKP

[Firecrest]

I've said for awhile now that I don't really see the point in 25-man, but some people seem determined to stick with it. I don't understand why we would needlessly make things significantly more difficult for ourselves. The only reward is a few badges faster. But let's face it, two months in, when you've got more badges than you can use, will it really be worth it?

[Hitshade]

10m raiding, isn't raiding. Its a large dungeon group that doesn't offer the difficulty or enjoyment of a large raid. If we want to focus solely on 10 man content we may as well not even be a guild. We would amount to a loose collection of cliques. This game has already been dumbed down to button mashing status in a lot of ways... I happen to enjoy a challenge and I dont think anyone of a similar mindset will find any joy in running 10 man content.

I also dont think our roster has changed to such a drastic extent that we could create more than one stellar ten man group without being forced to use alts.

[Firecrest]

What's wrong with using alts? Especially since the alts we generally use are piloted by very capable players.

25 man is not more challenging. In fact, Blizzard has said that it will be the least challenging of the two in terms of boss difficulty. Blizzard understands the fact that what makes 25 mans harder is not the challenge of the encounter, it’s the 15 good players carrying the 10 average/bads. This makes them harder but not more challenging. Overcoming the stupidity of the warm bodies you bring in to fill out a raid is not a challenge and, for me at least, it is not fun. It’s a chore and an annoyance. Raid 10 man with nine players if that's what you're looking for. That will be more consistantly challenging than essentially artificially inflating the difficulty of an encounter with the RNG that someone dumb will do something dumb.

You guys have spent the last three pages of this thread talking about how we should compensate people on the WL because they’re not raiding for the good of the guild. Here’s a way that everyone who wants to raid gets to raid. Between mains and alts, we have enough GOOD players to make at least two really solid 10 mans. Possibly three. And enough other people that want to raid that we could make a couple more after that.

Multiple ten mans would offer more flexibility too. Groups could be made that just raid Sat/Sun at a relaxed pace or stick to a more hardcore daily raid schedule or even a hardcore raid that gets all their raiding done for the week in one longer stretch ala Friday PUG style.

Don’t get me wrong. I think this change that Blizzard has made is ridiculous. The bonus for putting up with bads used to be better loot, but now they’ve stupidly taken that away. Obstinately this was done to cater to the casuals, the theory being that it will be easier for casual players to find a raid. But what they’ve really done is completely removed any incentive for a good player to take a causal player into an instance. It’s stupid, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t embrace it or that we should make things harder on ourselves for no good reason.

Really the only valid argument I can think of for 25 man raiding is that we can always switch to 10 if it doesn’t work out. But by that time, you’ve wasted a bunch of time and set up an organizational structure that just has to be taken down and rebuilt. And for what?

The effect on the guild seems valid until you think about it. How many people in the guild do you really like and enjoy playing with? And how many are friends of friends that you don’t know and don’t give a lick about? For me it’s probably less than two dozen of the one and more than two hundred of the other.

[Sanderz]

It sounds like someone isn't going to play the expansion very long.

[Firecrest]

Who me? I stayed through all of HM LK and completely releveled a toon when my account got banned. Pretty sure I'll be here forever.

[Hitshade]

Im not completely opposed to running 10 man content... I just dont find it as enjoyable.

I do actually think they would be more difficult to coordinate based on having to use alts to fill the rosters. It also really goes without saying that someone not showing up for a 25 man, isnt nearly as detrimental as someone not showing up for a 10 man.

Although, if we do run a lot of 10 man groups then we can simply eliminate the use of DKP all together. (In fact we'd pretty much have to. I cant imagine it would be remotely simple to track dkp across multiple 10 man groups filled with random alts)

I suppose, I'm still soured by the 10 man experience in wotlk. We couldn't even come up with two solid 10 man groups let alone building three to make use of all the individuals that want to raid in cata. Then there is the inevitable whining when the groups don't appear equally stacked.

[Firecrest]

Yeah, tracking DKP in a bunch of 10 man groups would be a nightmare and probably completely unnecessary. Free rolls would do just fine when you’re only rolling against one or two other people.

10 mans at the beginning TOTC were kind of a clusterfuck. But I think a lot of that was attributed to a lack of leadership and organization. Once Cuno took over the runs, they went very smoothly. Between myself, Abe, Furly, Jack and a few others, I think we have plenty of leadership personalities that should be able to step up to the plate to run a group.

You make a good point though about the difficulties when one person doesn’t show up. That could suck. Cause it’s not like you can run a WL for 10 mans. Maybe a better idea would be to have two strong 10 man groups that run during the week that could bring in alt/friend backups as needed and then run a couple pick up groups on the weekend. That’s pretty much the plan we have currently for 25 mans and actually does function kind of like a WL for 10 mans.

I dunno. I’m not saying that 10 mans are perfect and problem free or even that they are totally the way to go. I’m just not thrilled at all about how this expansion ended and in general with how I feel that there is always a portion of our raid that is actually making the kills more difficult. I don’t see that as challenging. I see that as highly frustrating. If we were raiding with 25 strong players and a WL with 2-3 more, then my opinion on this would be completely different. But we’re not.

[mininolan]

What's wrong with using alts? Especially since the alts we generally use are piloted by very capable players.

25 man is not more challenging. In fact, Blizzard has said that it will be the least challenging of the two in terms of boss difficulty. Blizzard understands the fact that what makes 25 mans harder is not the challenge of the encounter, it’s the 15 good players carrying the 10 average/bads. This makes them harder but not more challenging. Overcoming the stupidity of the warm bodies you bring in to fill out a raid is not a challenge and, for me at least, it is not fun. It’s a chore and an annoyance. Raid 10 man with nine players if that's what you're looking for. That will be more consistantly challenging than essentially artificially inflating the difficulty of an encounter with the RNG that someone dumb will do something dumb.

You guys have spent the last three pages of this thread talking about how we should compensate people on the WL because they’re not raiding for the good of the guild. Here’s a way that everyone who wants to raid gets to raid. Between mains and alts, we have enough GOOD players to make at least two really solid 10 mans. Possibly three. And enough other people that want to raid that we could make a couple more after that.

Multiple ten mans would offer more flexibility too. Groups could be made that just raid Sat/Sun at a relaxed pace or stick to a more hardcore daily raid schedule or even a hardcore raid that gets all their raiding done for the week in one longer stretch ala Friday PUG style.

Don’t get me wrong. I think this change that Blizzard has made is ridiculous. The bonus for putting up with bads used to be better loot, but now they’ve stupidly taken that away. Obstinately this was done to cater to the casuals, the theory being that it will be easier for casual players to find a raid. But what they’ve really done is completely removed any incentive for a good player to take a causal player into an instance. It’s stupid, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t embrace it or that we should make things harder on ourselves for no good reason.

Really the only valid argument I can think of for 25 man raiding is that we can always switch to 10 if it doesn’t work out. But by that time, you’ve wasted a bunch of time and set up an organizational structure that just has to be taken down and rebuilt. And for what?

The effect on the guild seems valid until you think about it. How many people in the guild do you really like and enjoy playing with? And how many are friends of friends that you don’t know and don’t give a lick about? For me it’s probably less than two dozen of the one and more than two hundred of the other.

SOMEONE SAY THEY NEED A PILOT?????????????

[Firecrest]

What's wrong with using alts? Especially since the alts we generally use are piloted by very capable players.

SOMEONE SAY THEY NEED A PILOT?????????????

Emphasis mine.

[jackslammer]

Whole thread is babies.

The main reason we haven't had waitlist be equal to raiding is because the occasional player comes a long that doesn't get into raids and sits on waitlist every raid because their CL is clueless/nonexistent and doesn't even know if that player is geared, experienced, etc. just that they are trial rank; and then when they finally come in raid they have top DKP.

I agree that if CLs do heir job and cut out the players that they don't want raiding and rotate the players they do want raiding, and waitlist was enforced well, that waitlist should be 100% of raiding DKP. There have been times that I've sat healers and asked Alyse to give that healer full DKP, because I thought they earned it, I know I did this with Keca at least once recently. Our DKP isn't set in stone we do use some discretion.

Lawler is a prime example of why we can't have nice things like full waitlist DKP, he AFKs so often while in raid how do we expect him to ever be fully available on a waitlist? Also a lot of waitlist players are those who are DCing, lagging, distracted, etc. and would you just give them less waitlist DKP, tell them to log off and give them no waitlist DKP, or what?