DKP

[lawlerbation the hardcore squatter]

why in the hell would i sit on wl get 20dkp for the entire raid, all the while being ready to go at a moments notice, when i could just find a 10m group come cata?

why in the hell would any one?

the problem is that your definition of the wait list is off

its not a /w jackslammer wl add then log off and forget the raid

its /w jackslammer wl add then sit in vent listening to the guild wipe for 4 hours hoping some one drops so you can raid with your fully prepared consumables and knowledge of the fight

and another thing, if i were to drop my spot so we can test out the new recruit why in the fuck would i want to if im going to be getting 1/4th the dkp? what would the incentive be for anyone unless they were BiS?

[Hitshade]

In general, we're pretty notorious for not really handling new recruits all that well.

On a related note; We need a proper trial period. Two weeks. Id even go as far as to say that no loot should be awarded to a trial during those two weeks, however dkp will accumulate at a regular rate. Full attendance required, etc. Maybe? In any case the "one-week-roflcers" we saw in wotlk really weren't a great idea. Those of us who carry a meaningful rank and didnt contribute as much as they could in wotlk (yes, Im even pointing the finger at myself) need to take a more active role for Cata.

Ranks were cleaned up fairly well, we should keep them nice and tidy. Just need to find a way to dissuade Abec from clicking the "promote" button too many times. hur hur hur.

(IM FUCKING KIDDING ABEC. A LITTLE.)




I SHOULD HAVE MADE A NEW THREAD. THIS POST IS IRRELEVANT TO DKP.

[Sanderz]

Oh cool, stuff I already mentioned in a different thread.

Just need to find a way to dissuade Abec from clicking the "promote" button too many times. hur hur hur.

Make Jack guild leader. See sig for more info.

[CAN]

i vote sanderz for gm

[Firecrest]

I think a lot of the problem is that no one is in charge of recruitment. I’m sure no one wants to be Guild Recruitment Officer, but there are definitely some people who are qualified for the spot. And we have a full to bloated rank labeled “Class Leader” with near to zero actual Class Leaders in it. I know Abe likes it that way, but I’ve always felt that our lack of leadership structure is one of our greatest flaws. Really the only fix for it would be someone going OCD on our guild ranks and people stepping up and acting like leaders. We have it in us, but I’m not sure what the catalyst would be to get that started.

As for WL DKP, I’m surprised to see so many people in favor of full DKP. I still don’t agree, but how about something like 3/4 normal DKP instead of the 1/3 I proposed before? I just don’t see WL as the magnanimous, self-sacrificing, for the good of the guild position that you guys are making it out to be. I’ve managed the thing for like a year now, so you’re just going to have to trust me that the vast majority of people who end up on WL are there because we have someone better than them in the raid filling their spot already. Second to that are people who don’t want to actually put the time in grinding on whatever boss we’re working on and next comes people who are unreliable in some way (showed up late, can only stay half the night, DC issues, etc). A far distant fourth are people who sit for the good of the guild (letting in a trial or some such).

The other thing is that I don’t want to have to be crazy stringent on WL DKP requirements. I’ve been in guilds that made you be on your main, in front of the raid entrance the whole night. And if you missed a single ready check, not only were you not getting any DKP, but you were getting berated by the GM too. I don’t want to be that kind of guild. You want to get on an alt, get on an alt. You want to close WoW and just hover in vent, that’s okay too. Hell, if you want to just give me your phone number and tell me to call you if we need you while you go play XBox, that’s perfectly fine by me. I do not care what you do when you’re on WL. All I care is that I know how to reach you and that you’re online and in raid within a couple minutes of me telling you we need you. Forcing people to stay on their mains so they can sit in group six is retarded. Just as stupid of an idea is random ready checks to make sure someone didn’t go grab a bite to eat.

[ArchmageFurly in three days]

I wish I didn't just wake up so I could have got to this thread sooner. In the past few weeks alot of ideas have been brainstormed to fix the problems that we currently have had in guild. One of the first is how we handle new recruits. I'm going to disagree with Alyse on a certain point, when he said that rotation is not impotant and we should always bring the best players. This should be true during difficult progression content that we haven't killed yet, but our raid should be much more flexible than it is right now.

I've taken it upon myself to talk to each person in this guild, past and present, and see what their status is for Catacylsm. Our intent was to use the first month or so to build our raid roster, back-ups included. With the availability of 10 mans, people that get sat can still get almost the same gear and experiance as those in the raid. In addition, the friday run will still be going strong, so there are plenty opportunities to run the content if you were sat that week.

In terms of rotations, trust needs to be put in the people that make those decisions. They should want to keep strong players, even if that means sitting themself when needed. Back when I was in Liquid (I know terrible example but bear with me) I had 7 mages that were "capable" of raiding. Keep in mind that's at a time where a second 25 man and 10 mans were unavailable. It's hard, but possible to keep everyone happy especially in this raiding enviornment.

The rotation obviously brings up the question of dkp. Because if people sitting aren't awarded dkp, they get penalized for doing something to help the guild. Some guilds solve this by prioritizing raid spots to people with highest dkp and awardng full dkp to the waitlist but I don't think that's for us. I honestly belive that a loot council would work wondors for us. If it is as Jack said and the council was comprised of Abe, Jack, Alyse, Mark, and myself, then I'm confident each person would have the understanding to fairly and equally distribute gear. All it means is that they have to take more responsibility upon themselves to udnerstand classes other than there own, and to know more about the performance and attendance of each of their raiders, and being able to handle that responsibility is what should have put them in that position in the first place.

In terms of recruitment, I've already talked to a large number of people be they friends of current raiders etc, people on Nath. I've hesitated doing the trade chat thing and making posts because as you said we don't have a legit recruitment officer.

[Hitshade]

There's a point of contention there for me when it comes to being accepting of a loot council... I have yet in my lifetime to know someone I would trust to make truly impartial and unbiased decisions. I think the odds of finding five of them, in a video game no less, are astronomically slim. I mean no offense by this of course. I dont see this as being a behavioral flaw, rather, simple human nature. But there are always positives and negatives and no one will ever be fully satisfied with loot distribution no matter what happens.

Fuck Im such a pessimist aren't I? rofl.

Maybe I need to get out more.

In any case, I dont necessarily care. People who show up to raids would still get gear.

[Firecrest]

In terms of recruitment, I've already talked to a large number of people be they friends of current raiders etc, people on Nath. I've hesitated doing the trade chat thing and making posts because as you said we don't have a legit recruitment officer.

Just a quick note. I don't think the time is right for mass recruitment right now. Forget "proper process", we don't have the ability to trial anyone right now even if we wanted to. We won't be capable of trialing someone for another month or more. RIght now all we can do is look at someone's app and armory and tell them that they look decent on paper and if they want they can join guild and cross fingers for a raid spot in a few weeks. That's pretty flimsy IMO.

Hell, we don't even know what kinds of classes we need yet.

[xnskzzxnvs]

well, at least it's obvious now why you think wl shouldn't get full dkp but others do: the two sides have fundamentally different idea of what wl entails. it's not necessarily the case that one side is right and the other side is wrong, but someone or the guild as a whole should put a foot down somewhere and spell out what wl means.

[Firecrest]

My problem with loot council is the potential for drama. Like Hitshade said, it’s near to impossible to be completely objective about such things. But even if you were, that doesn’t mean that everyone is going to see it that way. Even if you do everything perfectly fairly, there’s still the chance someone could feel that they got the short end and go all emo about it.

With a DKP system, you can't be mad because so and so got loot X instead of you. There's no one to blame.

I really do think our current system is about as fair as I've ever seen. There's been room for minor tweaks (I changed the cost of offspec partway through Wrath and the current discussion about WL as examples), but as a whole the system has worked very well for a very long time.